WG1 Gender and social economies of dried fish Meeting 2 2023-02-23

February 23, 2023

Participants: Derek, Rumel, Dilanthi, Eric, Gayathri, Holly, Kyoko, Madu, Mahfuz, Mahmudul, Nikita, Safina, Sharmin, Wae Win, Raghnild Overa

YouTube meeting recording

Meeting notes

Possible outputs (Derek)

• Peer reviewed paper

• Yamaya? Paper (story rich paper taken from the key points of the overall finding in this team)

• A special issue/edited volume

Possible topics

• Women’s agency
  • Generally speaking
  • Or in terms of how intersectionality may come into the equation and how it affects their livelihood

• What are the directions that we should go after reading through the two readings (Madu's and Sachs)?

• Brainstorm and talk about originality

Madu

• Empirical first approach vs conceptual (contextual?) approach
• We should figure this out first (creating a template for the literature/case collection that we want to focus on)
• After that we can identify what we want to present on between these three outputs

Derek

• I see your distinction as whether we want to be inductive or deductive in our approaches
• We have predetermined the focus of this meeting on the two assigned readings – as these are theoretical pieces, today is on the deductive side

Derek

• In relation to the points listed the GAF 8 website, how do these readings help us identify conceptual areas to which DFM’s scoping research can best contribute?

Gayathri

• Fish drying is almost like an extension of home-based cooking/processing

Derek

• what production means, how production transcends value chain structure – is there really a distinction between cooking and processing for women involved in prahok vc
• This is a boundary crossing idea

Gayathri

• this can also be linked to the paid/unpaid labour distinction that is quite blurred in this particular instance; this also keeps changing, when is surplus women engage in more commodity production
• can link this to labour and what labour means

Derek – does this blurring of domestic and public economy of dried fish account for what seems to be a universal lower valuing of women’s labour in DFM cases?

Holly

• Gendered Commodity Chains book
• How the household exists as an institution that links production and reproduction

Dilanthi

• In relation to Gayathri’s point about paid and unpaid labour, I think we can do comparative analysis of men’s and women’s work
  • at Cochin conference our team and Bangladesh team presented pay gaps along the value chain

• We can talk about labour, pay gaps and gender along value chain

• We can use this as a method to compare across research sites

Derek

• this would allow to generalize the finding more
• Definitely after the stacked value chain analysis there will be more data available to make claims about gender pay gaps in more systematic way

Kyoko

• The issue of space and humanist-materialist approach
• Not only about space, but also about material and time (in terms of household work and commercial work)

• These 3 things guide the development of dried fish value chain
  • With this approach we can analyze the dried fish value chain outside the mainstream, capitalist frame
  • By focusing on dried fish we can focus on things that that don’t match mainstream money oriented capitalism
  • Dried fish shows us other orientations to space time culture than just money; this is what we have seen in places in Cambodia; fluctuations in fish price do not necessarily affect df consumption; demand for df is very inelastic

Derek

• That approach very much aligns with the social economy perspective
• Thinking about dried fish from the gender and feminist lens helps us think about this; about non-capitalisms in the dried fish economy; connections to social economies literature
• Mahfuz’s and Madu’s approach to non commodity values through a gender lens
• Sachs’s analysis provides a way to link to households in context of restructuring; links to socialist feminism
• What did you mean in particular about spatiality of non-commodity sphere?

Kyoko

• Small-scale dried fish is in a ‘fuzzy’ space here
  • Public space is used to dried fish; it is a public space yet becomes a kind of extension of household space; no legal claim or entitlement but at same time is part of space that they are very comfortable in

Holly

• One thing that is fascinating about space in South Asian fisheries space is fluidity of how space is constructed; if you think about the positionality of fishing communities in relation to the rest of society; fishing communities on margins; ‘pariah communities’
• Market is conflicted space because in mainstream society markets are very masculine
• But fish and dried fish trading are often feminine; purchasing food in markets for household is permissible use of market space for women, but trading and processing by women in public spaces are more ambiguous
  • It is fascinating to think about how these spaces are so fluid
  • What does this mean for men’s and women’s work in these spaces

Derek

• Aklima and Safina have been working on processing space, not marketing space, but similar dynamics at play
• Processing spaces are highly problematic in terms of women’s access; women are central to them but they are not safe spaces for women; Salagrama and Dasu talk about this Andhra Pradesh
• In contrast to what Gayathri and Kyoko said about the extension of household space into public space, in these South Asian spaces public spaces are not very amenable to women’s work; harsher, more hostile space
• This may relate to Madu’s intersectional analysis as well, e.g. in Bangladesh where class and other social dynamics (class, ethnicity) exacerbate conditions for exploitation and vulnerability

Holly

• Marketing spaces and processing spaces have a lot of similarities
• It is a contrast to market spaces in places like Ghana where women have much more agency
• Ram’s Mukkuvar women; household spaces spill out into public spaces but yet this is where these kinds of clashes take place

Derek

• the comparison between SEA and South Asia may be instructive; SEA may allow for better ‘translation’ of household space into public space than is permissible in South Asia
• Maybe this speaks to the radical feminist perspective of Sachs; maybe cultural norms are strong or harsher in the South Asian context with regard to women

Mahfuz

• When we add virtual space, the discussion becomes more complex
• Now we have seen rise of business through social media
• In Bangladesh many young women have done very well in this space
• Here the power dynamics are different

Derek – are you saying that digital space is safer for women?

Mahfuz

• I am not saying that it is safer, but that it is more accessible for women
• Women are doing really well in this space
• We need to learn more about what makes virtual space more acceptable to women

Derek

• It’s presumably a highly commodified space
• In a sense it’s a bit of a faceless space; you don’t have the embodied quality of interaction that way you would in a market setting
• How do vendors try to build community in these virtual spaces, to add face to them
• What are the implications of these spaces for differently resourced women of these new spaces? Presumably better educated and resourced women have better access to virtual spaces

Holly

• There is a really interesting question about how digital spaces are gendered and if they are different from physical market spaces
• I am wondering if the digital technology aspect links to what is culturally appropriate for women
• I remember a conversation with Muslim fishing women who observed that government positions, teaching were acceptable, but shop girl no way
• I am wondering if the social status of digital work supercedes ‘fish aspect’ of fish trading; plus they may not have to go out of the house in a way that may be more appropriate from a cultural perspective

Derek

• Perhaps the stink of dried fish is attenuated by the distance that the virtual space brings
• So the facelessness is actually an advantage
• This seems like an interesting and original direction to go in conceptually
• Certainly contemporary; it is a change within capitalism that is worthy of reflection
• Ratana and Nova had begun to explore this within Thailand

Mahfuz

• Virtual fish vending was not my primary interest area, but it came out an important theme in my research and I did get field data on it

Gayathri

• We are extending this idea of space and fuzzy space in this conversation about digital space
• Holly already mentioned that digital spaces are gendered
• We did a study last year on impacts of Covid-19 on SMEs; barriers for men and women in terms of access to digital space was very different; their willingness to continue was shaped by their experience of this digital space
• Harassment and gendered violence is never absent in this digital space even in this marketing environment
• Idea that it is detached, that it is faceless should be challenged
• It’s also about access to devices
• During Covid there was competition for devices, kids wanted them, men wanted them, parents wanted them, and women always lost out

Derek

• So you mean that there are physical disadvantages women face in terms of access but also online oppressions like trolling that make women’s experience of the online realm ‘facefull’

Madu

• We can start by foreground the issues that women are facing and link them the literature
• I wanted to mention specifically the theme of valuing women’s work; I think this comes through in the book by Dunaway (Gendered Commodity Chains); in doing so we can circle back to original idea of value chain and how value is created and how women differently embed value in the value chain and then grounding it in real contextual aspects; and then we can link it to pay gaps and other aspects in terms of valuation of their work; this is a thread that we can bring out to shed light on women’s contributions in a very original way

Derek

• It seems to me that there is something that there is possibly something in what you were saying the related to Sachs in what you were saying in that what women represent is part of the politics of resistance; because what women represent is often how women are ideologically or culturally oppressed; revaluing what women contribute could be an act of resistance

Madu

• And then I think that also links to extension of household space; with huge implications for what you mentioned in terms of safety and sanitation that needs to be put in place from a value chain perspective

Derek

• Underscore the distinction between physical and virtual spaces; we should acknowledge that most women’s work will take place in physical spaces

Kyoko

• I want to emphasize the link between space and intersectionality

• Sithu Lin an AIT DFM student has looked at Burmese migrant workers in Thailand
• Migrant worker producing dried fish inside their houses to avoid being seen by authorities; using reproductive space for production
• State will barge into their houses because they will say that the migrants are doing illegal activities; they will come into the house so the personal space becomes public space and then they get arrested for that
• Then the migrant worker actually moves to dry fish outside on the street on the pavement and that kind of legitimizes it because they say that they are going to eat it; way of using space becomes very different for migrants than for Thais; (the police action actually helps legitimizes the dried fish production)

Derek

• One of the challenges for a project of the size of DFM is to somehow weave all of the so relevant findings from these sub-projects together

Holly

• There are a couple of different papers here

• We might want to come up with a series of questions that capture these kinds of issues that could be the focal point for a synthesis paper with examples from different contexts illustrating them
• I put thoughts in the chat (see the bottom of this document)

Derek

• It will be a challenge for us to organize the richness of possibility that this project and this discussion is generating

• I like the idea of a manifesto/synthesis/directions document/paper that puts the questions together and somehow lays them all out and then maybe establish what the separate logical separate sub-outputs might be organized around different areas of contribution

Rumel

• Specialization of space of production (in Bangladesh)

Holly

• Intersection of different spaces with women dried fish processing space

Derek

• One research question on materialist feminism

Madu

• Bringing in relations as a component

Derek

• Mapping the kind of work that we are doing in the DFM project
• After putting these new points up in the DFM website, can the members start editing the wiki page to add their ideas
• The wiki could be the place where we have the elaboration of the synthesis effort; as it becomes more fleshed out we could turn it into prose
• Where is this discussion taking us?
• Wae Win and Sharmin who are here will have strong gender component to their work
• Wae Win looking at migration and problematic identity in Thai context
• Sharmin looking a similar topic with regard to Rohingya; issues of public and private for Rohingya become really fraught because these women’s spaces, even their private spaces, are manufactured spaces; they are not spaces these women have an inter-generational connection to; the vulnerabilities these women face are potentially even arguably more serious than Sithu’s migrants are facing

Holly

• I wonder if it’s worth trying to come up with three research questions that capture these ideas; research questions are really helpful in grounding a paper or manuscript

Derek

• I think that’s a good way to anchor things
• We could think of conceptual and empirical questions arising from this discussion
• I could readily see an exciting question coming out of the discussion around virtual space

Holly

• A more general question could be, ‘how is space gendered’ within the social economy of dried fish
• Think about that from a dynamic perspective; not a fixed thing, changes over time

Derek

• A sub-question would be what are the complications that virtual space brings particularly in this historical moment when we have just had a major global event that has pushed things faster than we had expected

Holly

• Going back to Gayathri’s observation
• A few years ago I wrote a paper on how is that despite all of these changes we still have patriarchy?
• The conclusion I came to was a kind of radical feminist perspective; ultimately we are deeply steeped in patriarchy
• While digital sales opens up some opportunities, ultimately it is still some kind of masculine space

Derek

• The other side of the argument in Sachs’ argument and Mahfuz and Aklima’s work – how do we take this perennially frustrating story to find those cracks where there would be institutional supports for women dried fish vendors that would make certain kinds of trolling inadmissible

Mahfuz

• Both aspects are true
• They are harassed but they are also getting institutional support from GOs and NGOs
  • Specifically evident in Cox’s Bazar
  • I have not seem support in other areas of Bangladesh

Derek

• May be regional variations in Bangladesh that shape whether institutions provide support

Mahfuz

• Dried fish in Cox’s Bazar is a national development priority
• Df entrepreneur development in CB is why there is support there

Derek

• Why CB got this designation, not Sylhet

Rumel

• Uneven construction of space, SEZs, within gov’t development plans

Derek

• Within the capitalist imagination, spaces have different qualities to them
• Some spaces are targets for extra surplus extraction
• I think connection there to what Sachs talks about in terms of restructuring
• Nazia’s work on marine spatial planning as another example of the capitalist imaginary

Derek

• Seems to be strong research question around space
• Also struck by reminder about distinction between socialist and radical feminism
• Is there a question here about the interface between ideology and materiality
• In what we have been talking about there are clear material outcomes of ideas about women and men and their bodies

Holly

• Materialist feminism which derives from socialist feminism but takes seriously insights from radical feminism; could share the diagram from the SSRC project
• That diagram shows intersections of different aspects of people’s material lives

Figure by Holly M. Hapke - click to see full resolution image

Derek

• I think Madu is working in this space as well; how social wellbeing might articulate with materialist feminism
• There is work by others linked to DFM and by others who were not able to join this meeting that links to what we are talking about
• Bringing the discussions between DFM and SSRC together and the empirical work together would be helpful
• Jenia and Raktima’s work on social economy
• Materialist feminism as conceptual bridge; how DFM’s work can contribute to that particular perspective

• Using materialist feminism as approach, not as a question
• We came up with this several years ago for a ‘GAF 101’
• Intersection of political/legal, economic/environmental, social, and culture
• How these different aspects of people’s lives merge create their material conditions
• A key idea is patriarchy
• It’s a gender relations approach as well when thinking about power relations how political and legal institutions and relation reinforce different things in economic space and physical environment; how different household compositions can reverberate back to thinking about economic relations

Holly

• For SSRC, this is a visual depiction of how we are thinking about SSF in the Indian Ocean

Derek

• Given how much work this does, it might make sense to pull this in to wiki to help us focus our thinking in DFM
• Would be tangible way of linking work in the two projects

Gayathri

• There is lots of overlap between the projects

Kyoko

• There is so much overlap between the two projects that can’t distinguish them anyway!

Derek

• DFM central can produce notes of the meeting and add to the wiki to begin

Madu

• Please add relations to the conceptualization; relationality, intersectionality, marginalization can add to things that Holly shared in the framework

Derek

• For me relationality is valuable in terms of thinking about social relationality and epistemologically
• A key contribution of feminist theory and how feminist theory intersects with the more productive aspects of Marxian approaches, the dialectical aspect of Marxian
• To me, relationality is the fundamental contribution of the social wellbeing perspective in my interpretation; allows social wellbeing to enact/explore an intersectional perspective on the ground
• Practically, another conceptual direction to be explicit about is to find a way of trying to map the complementary work that is going on inside DFM and in related projects in which DFM participants are involved
• Can we engage with wiki to interact in digital space in preparation for next meeting?
• Do people need a reminder of how to work in wiki space?
• In the wiki, all you need to do is set up an account to get into the wiki and edit it
• Can send you a link to the wiki user’s guide

Kevin

• Just need account to make changes to edit the pages, can read without account

Derek

• The wiki was not really intended to be fully public

• We can have an online collaboration facilitated by this wiki to continue to work on ideas between meetings
• Focus for the meeting could be how to translate ideas into summary of current ideas into possible paper for Yemaya

Madu

• Ask for examples to think through these core ideas

Holly

• Read introduction to Dunaway and chapter 1 are good reading

• Case study on aquaculture and shrimp in Philippines

Three tasks

• More concrete thoughts about concrete outcomes
• Research teams to bring examples to discuss
• Read Dunaway?

·      Circulate Dunaway to group

·      Next meeting 15^th March; changed to March 29

Relevant messages from the Zoom chat:

09:21:53 From  Holly Hapke (she/her)  to  Everyone:

             Another good reference for thinking about production, reproduction, value chains is the book: Gendered Commodity Chains: Seeing Women’s work and households in global production - ed. by Wilma A. Dunaway.

09:25:24 From  Holly Hapke (she/her)  to  Everyone:

             Oh, I remember - on devaluing of women’s work. I’ve done some work on this. There’s a solid body of literature that argues that women’s work is devalued because it’s done by women. If you combine this with the idea that identity in fishing community often centers on men’s work in fish harvesting, and general patriarchal cultures, you begin to see how/why this takes place.

09:37:27 From  Holly Hapke (she/her)  to  Everyone:

             So thinking then - how is space constructed in different geographic contexts within the dried fish social economy?

09:38:19 From  Holly Hapke (she/her)  to  Everyone:

             Constructions of space are dynamic

09:38:53 From  Holly Hapke (she/her)  to  Everyone:

             So, how are understandings/constructions of space changing as other changes in economy and society take place?

09:49:09 From  Holly Hapke (she/her)  to  Everyone:

             I think a feminist commodity/value chain perspective is an avenue for re-valuing women’s work.

09:50:16 From  Holly Hapke (she/her)  to  Everyone:

             Here’s a reference on the value of women’s work in SSF: Pedroza-Gutierrez, C. and Hapke, H.M. 2021. Women's Work in Small-Scale Fisheries: A framework for accounting its value. Gender, Place and Culture. DOI: 10.1080/0966369X.2021.1997936.