Plenary meeting 2023-11-23

Video recording of the Zoom meeting

DFM Plenary Meeting

November 23, 2023

Discussions and decisions:

Derek Johnson: Well, nice to see you all. This is the second planning meeting since the Kolkata meeting. Last time, there wasn’t an enormous amount of discussion. Maybe there will be more today. It will be a little bit of an information meeting today. We have sent out an agenda. There are several categories of items on the agenda. Start with some news, then a general overview of where things stand since the Kolkata meeting. Then, some updates where a number of different people will give short presentations, and then we'll open it up for questions and discussions. And then, at the end of the meeting, I'd like to spend a few minutes just getting some feedback on how we might structure these bimonthly meetings in terms of topics for the next six months or so.

In terms of news, the DFM e-book was launched on November 21, 2023, on World Fisheries Day. I’m going to allow Eric a couple of minutes to talk about it.

Eric Thrift: Yes, I assume you’re talking about the e-book. I think things are ramping up. I see also some news: Jessie and Mahfuz were both presenting papers recently and a couple of publications are coming out as well. So, it's really great to see all this productivity. I think the big news that Derek is alluding to, of course, is the e-book, and we've sort of introduced the e-book and said well, it's ready several times already. But I would like to thank everybody who contributed to this. It is kind of a capstone or landmark volume in the sense that it's just so big and has brought so many people together, which I think is something that we hadn't really planned at the outset of the e-book writing process. So, we had a team of, I guess, six or seven editors, but I think tallying up all of the contributors to this volume, there were about, I think, 70 of us. And I think one of the really inspiring things about it also is that so many of the chapters actually are co-authored. Many of them involved collaborations between students and mentors but also across different teams and different areas. So, I'm hoping this will be not just a capstone but a stepping stone towards Something even more exciting.

As I mentioned at the Kolkata meeting, I'm hoping to initiate work on an exhibit which will maybe draw on many of the things that are present in the in the e-book. So, kind of travelling exhibit presenting maybe some of these chapters, some of the ideas, the videos that we've done as part of the same process in a slightly different format and trying to reach more people with more of an attention to the materiality of dried fish. And I think we'll find other venues as well to pick up some of this work. So, if you haven't already downloaded the e-book, there are I think 2 versions of it on the TB TI website. So, thanks of course, to Ratman, to Vesna, to TBTI for helping to do all the hard work of copy editing very much a lot of last-minute revisions that ended up on their plate. So, thanks for putting that together. Thanks for the formatting and for hosting it. It's quite a big book, over 1000 pages, I think. So, lots of bedtime reading for all of us.

Derek Johnson: Thank you, Eric. Yeah. I've had a lot of feedback over the last few days since we formally launched it from various people, people Sort of popping up out of the woodwork to say how impressed they are. So, that's really good. I think the book may also, get more traction than we were expecting. So, yeah, and I think people are responding well to the creative aspect of it, the fact that it's a more accessible volume. So, yeah, well done Eric and thank you everyone, for contributing to what is an unexpectedly quite wonderful and large product of DFM. And hopefully, as Eric says, it may lead to other creative works like that. And Eric, we're looking forward eagerly to hearing more about the progress of getting the exhibit together.

Okay. So, the next item on the agenda is to give an update, a news update on progress in terms of conference presentations and other venues in which to share outputs from DFM. We did submit a proposal to the IIFET conference that will be held in Penang in July next year. I can give you a quick view of what it looked like that proposal.

Can you see my screen?  I'm not going to go through the text, but this is the title of the session, The Economic Worlds of Dried Fish. We had enough interest from DFM, and we were able to put together two-panel proposals. So, the first one has a gender focus, gender and diversity and dry fish, social economies, and a nice mix of students and professors in that first panel. And then the second panel looks at consumption and nutrition in social economies of dried fish. Another nice thing about this panel is that it really reflects the two major emerging areas of cross-cutting work in DFM. So, the gender theme and the nutrition slash consumption theme. Again, a nice mix in the second panel of students and professors.

So, I'll come back to that cross-cutting theme elements of current work and DFM in just a second. But if this panel proposal is accepted, this will give us a really nice target to work towards in terms of mobilizing energy around those two cross-cutting themes of gender and basically working group 2, which is the consumption nutrition working group.

The other contribution to a conference that we're interested in making is the TBTI Asia Symposium in April and we're actually even though that April symposium is coming up sooner than the IIFET meeting, we're actually further behind in terms of getting together Some contributions to the to that TBTI symposium. So, as far as I know, we have at most two people who have expressed an interest in presenting in the symposium. Is Ratna there? Ratna, are you there?

Nova Almine: Hi Derek, Ratna is not here.

Derek Johnson: I was going to call Ratna to just say a couple of words about what this symposium is about. My understanding is it's a symposium that aims to emphasize promising new findings or strategies for supporting small-scale fisheries in Asia.  If anybody would like to put forward a paper to speak on that theme at the TBTI Symposium in Japan, please communicate that to us very quickly because we are supposed to get the abstracts in by the 30th of the month. This is not a panel format, it's just an individual presentation format. And I think the idea is to foster discussion around that theme by the participants. So, let DFM Central know if you have a particular positive story that you'd like to share in that venue.

The third area of news that I wanted to quickly mention is we've been trying to put quite a lot of effort into strengthening DFM's communication strategy since the Kolkata meeting. And So, Mahfuz, maybe. Do you want to say Something about that?

Mahfuzar Rahman: Yeah, sure, from the communication perspective uh we are trying hard to increase the public outreach as well as the internal communication. So, from the Internal communication perspective, Derek and I are continuously trying to reach the research teams about the research and the outputs. In regard to public outreach, every week we have a blog post. Simultaneously we have a social media post on DFM social media accounts that is posted by Sharmin Afroz, another DFM student. So, we are hoping that by the end of this year, you will hear more from the communication team from DFM Central.

Derek Johnson: Thanks Mahfuz. So, the hope is that by creating greater regularity about communication, ensuring that at a minimum every week, we're putting out a blog post on related social media posts. That will just heighten the presence of DFM's public face. But also, to encourage members of the DFM team to think about ways that they can contribute their findings to the public presentation of what DFM is doing. So, we're working, particularly with the student group at the moment, to try and encourage such submissions. But we'd also like to ask, each of the research teams to think about little Nuggets, little appealing Nuggets of information, photos, videos, or whatever they'd like to share with the broader public about their work.

Okay, So, that's it for news. Does anybody have any other news that they would like to share about activities that are ongoing?

Amalendu Jyotishi:  Just one update maybe for the Indian team, we had put a panel together for this Indian Society for Ecological Economics, which is happening in January and February beginning, and I think in a week's time. We will get to know if the panel is accepted or not. But informally, I think we understand that they will accept it because they don't have a financial burden on them for this.

Derek Johnson: Awesome. That's great. Thanks, Amal. And then linking to the communications topic, of course, from DFM Central’s point of view, we'd like you to make sure that you take a picture of two of the attendees, you know, maybe Somebody in action presenting a very exciting presentation just like the one we put up of Jessie and Mahfuz the other day. So, yeah, in January, please share and give us a short update on any key outcomes from that meeting. Thanks.

Gayathri Lokuge:  Derek. Who should we get in touch with for sharing content for social media posts and things?

Derek Johnson: It's either Mahfuz through Dried Fish Matters or Sharmin. So, the two of them were coordinating the communications. So, if you communicate to dry fish matters, Mahfuz can redirect anything that's more social media-oriented towards Sharmin. If it's more for the blog, then Mahfuz can just post it himself. Thank you. That's great. That also, means that we're looking forward to getting Something from you soon.

All right. Let's carry on then. So, then the next topic on the agenda is to just give a general update from me of where things stand in terms of processing the outcomes from the Kolkata meeting. And so, I do admit that that has been a slow process, as you're all aware with the Kolkata meeting now 3 months past.

It reflects my interest in trying to be as deliberate about processing the learnings from the Kolkata meeting as possible. So, what you know and part of that deliberateness in terms of processing the outcomes of the Kolkata meeting is wanting to balance areas of work that cut across all of the research teams in conjunction with supporting continued work by each of the individual research teams. And it's really important how we can try to allocate our remaining resources across those two priority areas as effectively as possible to create the most impact of this project as possible. OK. so, I want to make sure again that the really important insights that came out of the Calcutta meeting are digested properly and implemented well in the next three years that we have left in the project.

OK. so, I'm saying three years now. I had been saying two years previously. But one of the things that I inquired about in the last few weeks is that I inquired to see whether we could get a further year-long extension of the Dried Fish Matters project. And you know on one side you might read that as just procrastination, but on the other side I think that that additional year, would potentially give us just a bit of buffer to really bring out the impact, the important findings of the project.

I also say that because I double-checked DFM's budget and just went through the math again and indeed, we are in an OK budget situation. You know I had mentioned about $300,000. We have that maybe with a bit of wiggle room to work with. If we distribute that carefully, I think that'll get us through another three years.

And so, specifically, I've been having meetings with the cross-cutting theme teams; what I see are the key cross-cutting themes that emerged out of the Calcutta meeting. That is an interest in Working Group 2 focuses on nutrition and food security. Looking specifically at the diversity of contributions that dried fish make in terms of nutrition, but also the possible limitations and constraints of eating dried fish in terms of contaminants. And so, I've had a few meetings with different folks about how to begin to roll out across-cutting efforts to really bring out the research of Working Group 2.

The other area that we've been working on is the gender and social economies. And as you know, that one is even more advanced. And so, I've also had meetings about that.

The third area is to prioritize establishing the student working group. And so, we've also had a meeting to get that going. As many of you know, yesterday, I sent out another set of emails and those were focused on the research teams. So, I asked folks in all of the research teams to consider having specific meetings with me to talk about their plans as they presented in the Matrix and how those plans intersect with the cross-cutting themes meetings that are also ongoing.

Ok. So, that's where the planning stands. And so, I expect in the next couple of months we'll have a whole series of meetings, cross-cutting theme meetings and working group or research team meetings that will move towards tying together this deliberate process of planning. So, I expect by February or so, we should be in a position to really launch phase two systematically.

OK. So, that's an update on where things stand in terms of planning. Then, let's move on to the third topic on the agenda, which is to give specific updates on the cross-cutting themes. So, we're going to start with an update from Mahfuz about the student working group.

Mahfuzar Rahman:  Thank you, Derek. Yeah, sure. I'll try to summarize the discussion and outcomes of the meeting that we had on the 6th of this month. So, the DFM students had this meeting after a long time after a long break and all of the students were very excited having this meeting. Throughout this meeting, we identified several working areas for our next meetings, and we also, identify some practical goals of the student group meeting. So, I'll try to summarize all those areas and practical rules. If I missed anything, I request the other DFM students to come forward and add it. OK. So, beginning with the items or areas that we identified in the meetings, the first one is sharing the research experience, all the students find it challenging as well as interesting that we have during the ethnographic fieldwork. So, all the students anonymously agreed that we should share our ethnographic experiences, the challenges they face, and how they overcome them. So, sharing this experience can help other students to improve their ethnographic research as well.

So, the second area that we identified was organizing theme-based sessions in upcoming student group meetings. So, we agreed to have a thematic session in our upcoming meetings. But we haven't identified what are the themes yet. So, we are hoping to identify the areas in the next student meeting. And the third item we identified is carrier talks. So, many DFM students hope to finish their program in the coming years. So, we find it important to organize Some career talks, and we invite Some of the ex-parties like you who can give us some career advice and share their experiences on how to join academia or outside. The fourth area of our interest is data analysis. Some of the students are still in their ethnographic research states; they are doing their fieldwork, and Some of them are doing their analysis at this moment. We find it important to have a data analysis session, specifically qualitative data analysis. DFM earlier organized a data analysis session conducted by Eric Thrift. So, we find it important to have this session for the students again. So, we are hoping to invite Eric Tripp to one of the upcoming sessions to conduct a qualitative data analysis session, particularly using Atlas.ti. The final item of our plan is to invite guest speakers with expertise in areas relevant to students’ research. So, we hope to reach out to Some of you and have you as a guest at our upcoming student group meetings.

Regarding the practical goals of the groups, the student group identified particularly two practical goals. So, one is developing a conference panel for an upcoming conference, and the second goal is to publish co-authors’ papers.

Another issue that the group found critical to discuss is the mental health of graduate students raised by Ishan Khot. The graduate students go through ups and downs and have so much stress. So, how to overcome those stresses, and concentrate on your studies, and make a healthy balance between your personal and academic life? The student group proposes organizing a mental health session inviting Some experts from the University of Manitoba or outside. That’s all from my end; Ishan is here if he would like to add anything about it.

Ishan Khot: Thanks, Mahfuz. Nothing specific now. It was just a point that I brought up at the time and it was to see what kind of shared challenges different students might be facing. Uh. So, thanks for bringing that up and sharing it with the group today. While it might be useful to have like a particular session, having an expert might be useful but also even more effective in addition to that, it would just be like students talking about their experiences and what kind of coping mechanisms they use that Sort of peer-to-peer support is also, very effective in such situations. It can also be very effective. So, that's Something that can also happen concurrently and doesn't have to be in one particular session.

Mahfuzar Rahman: Thanks, Ishan. I wanted to share another issue that was brought up by Sharmin Afroz, the writing group session. We have decided to continue a writing group session among the students, and Collen Cranmer, another DFM student, has come forward and is willing to take the lead in the writing group session. So, we are hoping to start and continue the writing group session very soon. Thanks.

Derek Johnson: Thanks a lot, Mahfuz and Ishan. Yeah, the student meeting was really productive, and it indicated to me at least that there's kind of a latent demand for this kind of forum for the students to provide Some peer-to-peer support but also to mobilize them around their shared interests and potentially Some collective outputs. So, I really think that kind of group is very important practically, but also to provide reassurance to each other, particularly when students are facing stresses, fieldwork stresses, or, you know, graduate program-related stresses.

All right, so the next update then is on the Gender and Social Economies Working Group, let's call it. And Neraka agreed to say a few words on that based on the meeting we had earlier this fall.

Nireka Weeratunge: Hi everyone. This is the meeting that was held, I think, on the 9th of November, called by Derek, and Mahfuz was also there. It was a meeting of the senior gender researchers, Holly, Kyoko, Tara, Nikita and myself. We wanted to discuss the Sort of core direction that the gender outputs or studies might take in the remaining time period. And we came up with three outputs that we would want to work towards that we will be outlining.

So, the first one is a synthesis paper that would be led by senior researchers involved with everybody else. And it would be a theoretical paper to go into a peer-reviewed journal. And this would look at what Sort of theoretical argument we can make from the empirical findings across the different countries. So, it's a comparative paper, and the idea was also to take stock of what kind of findings and insights we have from each country by using templates and/or also having consultations with each country team and students who have been working on gender. So, each of us will be responsible for one country or one region to discuss and try to figure out what kind of material there is for us to go forward with this synthesis paper which is theoretical. And from our side, we would also, be writing some things to look at where the converge or diverge in our theoretical approaches and how this might fit or not speak with the findings.

So, that's number one. Now, the second output is a case studies book, especially aimed at practitioners. I'll let Kyoko talk to you a bit more about it because, you know, I think it's primarily her idea, and the case studies are for like practitioners and to look at positive experiences which people can learn from. But it would also discuss the challenges in this process. And basically, it is to pick up a case study Sort of what got lost, lost in the way so far. So, it could be an elaboration on Some studies that are already in the e-book or new studies that have not been published so far. And it would be more analytical rather than popular, which the e-book was, although, you know, there was quite a bit of analysis in the e-book as well. But it's sort of in between being academic and popular.

The third output is if we can manage a special issue to be published either I mean in a journal like Maritime Studies or Gender, Place and Culture, which would look at specific insights and analysis of gender issues from countries or teams or thematic areas and that would be done by the country teams or students who are focusing on gender. So, I think that pretty much is what we discussed and to you know and have these outputs as the goal to towards what we will be working. And yeah, I'd like to give it over to Kyoko to explain a bit more about the case studies book

Kyoko Kusakabe: Yeah, Thanks. Just a correction, the case-book is not my idea. It actually came from the group discussion during the Kolkata meeting. And So, it was a very much collective idea. S0, please note that it’s not my idea, but it came out of the group discussion in the Kolkata meeting.

The idea was it would be nice to have more success cases or failure cases to learn from. So, that idea would have been floated and then we had another group meeting, a group discussion during the Kolkata meeting and then during that time that has also, been further discussed. The idea was we might have interesting stories that might not be reflected or used in journal papers or books. These kinds of interesting stories can go into the case-book, so we thought we should collect them. Our thought was to utilize these interesting stories that are not utilized in academic papers to be shared with others. Nikita had a very lovely case which would be a very interesting example for people to think about and write about. So, maybe Nikita can also share with us what kind of cases we were talking about because it was Nikita and Tara who were there in the meeting and also among the people. I'm very So, sorry if I missed other group members. So, other group members who are there during the discussion, please do add on, but I'll give the word to Nikita.

Nikita Gopal: We did some clustering activity with women and capacity building. So, when I was talking about that, it actually didn't work out in the end the way we wanted it to. But there were lots of lessons that we learned about the process and also, about the outputs from that intervention. And it was when I was talking about that, that Koko said, that this could be a very interesting case or a story that really I think I did not write any paper out of it. But then this could form a very it's a practitioner Sort of a point of view, and that could be used for, say, teaching or some other purpose. So, that's I think one of the things that is being included. So, that was my story. And then there was another exercise of a similar sort where we had also, to deal with the local politics and other institutional issues before we could really do the intervention. So, that was another story which she thought was interesting. So, that's I think Something that was intended of that case Sort of storybook. So, if I put it across correctly, I think that's what we thought we would do is, is it not capable?

Derek Johnson: Is that good, Nireka?

Nireka Weeratunge:  Yeah, Well, that's pretty much you know what we want you to report. If anybody has any questions, you know we can take them. Otherwise, we can move on to the next topic. There is a clear alignment between the discussion that you just had about the positive aspects of interventions around gender and dried fish social economies. But also, recognizing that those positive instances are not always perfectly positive. There may be aspects that are problematic or ongoing structural challenges that that gender structural challenges that still persist that need to be addressed So, and So, I was going to say there's an alignment with Ratana’s idea for the TBTI meeting. So, I don't know if the gender group might want to consider submitting an abstract to Sort of reflect on Some of the lessons as this collection of examples begins to come together could be a way also, to begin to frame the synthesis paper. Anyway, I'll put that on the table. Maybe we can have a follow-up e-mail to see whether we could elect Somebody to participate in that and make our presentation.

But I think the synthesis paper might take a bit more time because, you know, we need to look at both the empirical, you know, material from the different countries, plus you know how we work on our theoretical approach. But this particular, case studies might fit in, in and of themselves. Just maybe one case study, I mean one doesn't have to do it all together, but one case study or two case studies could go into because these are plenary sessions that they TBTI will be having. So, it might go in there. Nikita already has a story to tell. So, maybe, you know, one can do that individually. Yeah, people who have such stories that people can learn from.

Holly Hapke: I was just going to basically say what Nireka just said, that I think we decided not for the synthesis paper not to put Something because it was too soon.

Derek Johnson: I was just thinking in the sense not of presenting Some final version of the theory paper but to use it as a point, as a milestone in the process of thinking through what that theory paper or the synthesis paper might look like. But yeah, having a case study would make sense for the TBTI meeting.

OK, so, let's move on. What I want to underline though, and what I just presented, is how well the gender and social economy discussion cuts across the project as a whole. So, to me, it really is one of the key ways in which we can talk together about how all of our work is complementary around this issue of gender and Social economies. So, that's similarly the value of the discussions I've been having with a variety of people about the nutrition and social economy theme. All right so, do so, that's basically working Group Two, but it's a discussion that has implications also, for working Group One and working Group Three. So, what I want to do is just share my screen with you and show you a couple of figures that I developed to help facilitate the discussion. The conversation around the nutrition and social economies linkage again as a theme that I see as cutting across the project, cutting across the research teams and one that is really strongly rooted in one of the key interests that was expressed in the Kolkata meeting about trying to map contaminants in dry fish products across the DFM project. So, have a look at this.

This is the first slide of several that I want to show you. In this slide, I’ve juxtaposed basic research with outcomes from that basic research. So, under basic research, Social economy stuff about context, about dried fish economies, under outcomes, the kinds of interventions that we might consider and in policy governance, development areas. And then from left to right on the screen, I've actually included two projects, one of which is a project proposal that has been submitted and on the right, of course, our DFM project. Here are just a couple of words on the project proposal that has been submitted. This is a Canadian government-funded program that looks to support research around climate change and food. OK. So, we submitted a proposal a couple of months ago. If this is funded, I would see it as complementing the work that we're doing in DFM. The focus of this particular proposal would be looking at the importance of small fish. So, not just dried fish but dried fish would continue to have a major role, but the importance of small fish for small-scale fish food systems basically and how small fish can potentially hypothetically help with climate change mitigation and adaptation in terms of supporting diverse livelihoods and in terms of supporting nutrition security. So, basically, pursuing a more sustainable approach to fisheries that would hypothetically be more carbon neutral in terms of as opposed to Sort of long distance, large fish-focused, export-oriented kinds of fish food systems. OK, that's So, I'm not going to say much more about the climate change proposal because we don't know if it's going to be successful yet. If it is successful, it will again it will be complementary to DFM, and I'll say much more about it if that proposal comes through and several people who are part of DFM are involved in that proposal.

The second figure that I want to show you then adds Some content to the first figure. The second figure again moves from basic research to outcomes around the theme of nutrition and social economy. So, in in the basic research box, you see an effort on my part to link our social science research about social economy to the consumption effects of dried fish as food. And so, the core of this basic research is to really figure out who consumes what where and how that pattern of consumption is changing over time. And then by understanding that broader pattern of consumption, what kinds of arguments we can make about the nutritional benefits, but also, the potential health impacts of contamination in dry fish products? And so, then this is in a sense this is part of the working group one’s goal of mapping the relationship between the Social dimensions of economic activities and dried fish and the health implications of the consumption of dried fish. So, that's the basic research box. If you go up to the outcomes box then, and I'll focus on the right side, there are policy implications from our research. So, if we can understand the food system of dried fish better than it is currently understood, we should have guidance about what kinds of contaminants exist and how to try to develop systems for reducing those contaminants and dried fish products that can be.

That effort can then be associated with potential economic interventions of the Sort like Sereyvath proposed for Cambodia, where we'd be looking to support particular groups to produce higher quality dried fish that would reduce contaminants that could have an economic benefit for those groups. So, it's So, the outcomes then are potentially to improve nutrition and health all while also, improving livelihoods. So, that's the big picture of how I've tried to put the second phase, the potential of the second phase activities for DFM around nutrition and contaminant, the study of nutrition and contaminants in the context of Social economy. That's the Sort of conceptual background in terms of where we go and who could potentially lead this effort. I've listed and again focusing on the right side of the figure here I've listed groups within DFM and currently outside of DFM who are potentially particularly interested in basic science, basic research and applied research of this larger theme. And so, you can see, who's potentially could lead this on the screen here. And then I've also, indicated the working group connections in this initiative.

OK. So, that's background then. In terms of where things stand, in terms of the conversations around this. I had a meeting yesterday with the UoM team who are working on nutrition and the World Fish and Indian Institute of Science Research. I think that's the full form of the acronym particularly when you're P. Baduri who is at ISCER, Kolkata. So, that was the conversation was about networking with a couple of new potential partners for DFM who are equipped to do both basic science research on nutrition and particularly contaminant analysis and then also, to do studies of environmental and social contexts of contamination and dried fish products.

Both of them are really, really interested in becoming involved in DFM. So, building on that meeting, then what I'd like to do is to call another meeting of all of the members of DFM who are potentially interested in contributing to this particular aspect of the project for January. And then, in January, we'll make a plan about how to systematically scale up the nutritional analysis and contaminant analysis research in relationship to our understanding of social economy in different parts of the project region and in relationship to different patterns of consumption as we're coming to understand them in different parts of the project region. The last point that I'll make is that in the meeting yesterday, there was a really strong interest in looking at the relationship between social economy and nutrition and contaminants in the Bay of Bengal region and particularly Orissa, W Bengal, India, Northeast and Bangladesh. But I also know that we have a strong capacity in terms of understanding consumption patterns in the Indian So, southwest. So, and then we also have proposed work in Cambodia. So, there are a number of potential priority areas in the project that we could focus on. OK. So, that's the background to the cross-cutting thematic discussions around Working Group 2, and then I think that brings to a close the updates section of the agenda.

So, now I'd like to open up the meeting for responses, reactions, comments, questions, and discussion based on what you've heard so, far in terms of taking DFM forward into the second phase of the project.  What do people think about these three areas, these three cost-cutting areas, the student, the contribution of students to DFM, the needs of students and DFM, the gender and social economy crosscutting theme and then the nutrition and consumption cross-cutting theme, and how do these themes align with discussions that are taking place within the research teams, the DFM research teams?

Because the DFM research teams are going to be critical in terms of collaborating with those who are managing the cross-cutting themes to provide, you know, the foundational data that those teams are going to need or those cross-cutting working groups are going to need. Thank you.

I don't know if that's dedicated. This silence is a little scary. That is what I felt, yeah. There. I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole psychology of silence and also, a like a feminist kind of perspective on silence as well, I would say. Or maybe, or at least the reflexive perspective on silence, that is silence. Silence is awkward. It's uncomfortable living with living with the awkwardness. Living with the discomfort is Sometimes quite productive.

Amalendu Jyotishi: I'll talk about this nutrition and consumption part of the story would be a little fascinating. There are different versions of it. That one is how aspirational food is and what kinds of association that different sense sets up consumer bring into this particular food. So, those aspects, when we kind of try to link it, a number of things are coming up, at least from our own some kind of studies. What we are seeing is that the new innovations that are coming up, like if it is too salted, then saying if Some people are saying that OK, there's too much salt is leading to different kinds of non-communicable diseases like blood pressure or heart diseases. So, they're less salt-dried fish are kind of also, being innovative in certain forms. So, given this kind of situation and other issues relating to contamination, I think having a comprehensive study coming across from different places and regions both as a kind of scientific analysis of the contaminant or So, or the nutrient of different types of pieces one side and the other side the perception of the consumer and what is being perceived by the processors and producers also, with as in response to the consumers perception. So, those are the things together I think would make it a pretty comprehensive work. That's what at least I feel and given the kind of teams that we have across and the interest that we have, I think it would make certainly impactful work.

Derek Johnson: Thank you. Yeah, that's a very nice example that I think helps us think through

the logical flow in this figure. Holly, do you want to say Something?

Holly Hapke: No, I was just saying we're just digesting everything. But I found that idea. I mean, this is purely kind of personal and a little bit of a digression. I've had a that's another interest in kind of interdisciplinary integration and how to integrate social science in a more robust way with other sciences. And So, I found actually this kind of an interesting case study on that in terms of thinking about how social economy the relationships and how the connections between Sort of how economies are organized sort of socially and culturally and. To what extent might that have Some kind of impact on or from whatever connections with the kind of consumption nutrition? So, that's a fascinating idea. So, I personally can't really get too involved in that project, but I think that would be great if the team explored that.

Derek Johnson: So,, yeah, thanks Holly that also, puts the finger on why I think this is So, exciting that I think in Sort of an unanticipated way the project has generated a kind of interdisciplinary potential here. And So, Amal's example I think integrates a lot of that interdisciplinary potential because it, you know we've got on the one hand we've got a public perception of the health impact of consuming a particular product. And there are there are historical, and cultural ways of understanding why that perception arose that are important to understand in terms of policy.

And So,, DFM is now at a place where I think we have the capacity to enter into that analysis from multiple disciplinary perspectives. But also,, there are clear, there are clear policy implications of that research. Yeah. But I think it's also, just a question of like, how the organization or the social economy of dried fish and fish generally. Access to a nutritious food item.

I just wanted to go back to this question, not go back to the question, but really remind us that ourselves that you know we did this whole work on small fish, small dried fish for the best Pacific Symposium And a lot of it was never published because you know the, the journal for that particular symposium was not appropriate. It was too you know ecological Leo oriented or not ecology even, but more natural science oriented. So, we never did anything but that material is still there and that connects with the nutrition. I think in terms of Sri Lanka, I was very clear that we had very good data on small fish consumption, dried small fish consumption and how it also, has changed access for the poor. Also,, I mean this whole connection that one reason why we were interested in having this cross-country comparison with Thailand was the anchovy was Sort of a connection there, small dried anchovy. So, I think certain things are there already that we need to actually make an effort to publish or work on or get forward to this new Sort of constellation of projects. How to how to concretize the work that we've already done in productive ways? For this particular cross-cutting theme to potentially publish that material as is, but also, to make sure that we don't forget the lessons from that material as we develop. Let's say a second phase analysis of the consumption, nutrition and relationship in Sri Lanka.

Sorry discussing this in the plenary meeting; we have on working Group 2 meeting in January, let's ensure that Sri Lanka brings to the table what we already know from past work.

Tara Nair: Yeah, I know one thing. I thought it was definitely a thing. As Holly said, it needs a little bit of time to digest the layered Sort of interconnections among these dimensions. But I think you definitely have to state how we could really work through the different thematic focus that we have et cetera. So, I was just thinking that even the simple question of nutrition leads to the quality of women's work, woman's overwork, a lot of constraints, that we have been talking about and how it ultimately really gets summed up in this, what is known as the final product they do produce, which is not perhaps like standing up to the standards of the market. And that's one part of the story. When you started talking about the collaborations, I thought that again it came from my reading of the medical literature. I think a significant stakeholder in the whole process is actually the medical community. I have seen reports I've seen studies in Orissa which said that the districts where dry fish consumption is very high. The incidence of cancer is high colon cancer. So, what I'm trying to say is that maybe these researchers are not even Sort of you know done under So, that we you know apart from the science of fisheries. I think when you talk about kind of feels dried fish as a food you know kind of an item. As stakeholders we need to Somehow Sort of bring into the debate would be the medical practitioners. I really do not know how we do that, but they play a very significant role. If you go to PubMed you will see a lot of little papers which really talk about the quality, you know the ones which really don’t talk about the post-harvest handling is bad or anything because that part they really do not know. But they say that necessarily like they dried fish that you consume is really Sort of a bad and poor quality and hence it impacts the health of people. So, there is Some in terms of a policy impact, there is a little dot which needs to be I think joined either as a good review and some sort of a conversation. I don't know how we can do that, but in certain states, it should be possible to get some public health professionals or somebody as you know, kind of a, you know, interested or important stakeholder.

Derek Johnson:  Yes, Tara, you have indicated a gap in DFM team. We don't have medical researchers who would have the expertise to analyze Sort of the evidence in terms of population health, of consumption patterns of dried fish. So, that that is a gap. I'm not sure what we can do about it at this stage, but I mean, I guess at least we could begin those conversations if people have in their networks medical researchers who do work on population health, we could perhaps reach out to them.

So, perhaps Something to make note of, to think about who might be in your networks, who could collaborate with us, at least to brainstorm about how to interpret what we're finding in a way that's consistent with medical science. And what Sorts of recommendations we might make at the end of the project to say, well, these are the kinds of social economy of medicines studies around dried fish that would be called for.

We do have a medical school here at UoM. Could potentially make Some inquiries here.

Amalendu Jyotishi: I think Tara's point is very interesting and means it just happened that we had a medical doctor Yogesh Jain who works in Chhattisgarh and runs an organization on public health basically called Dunsworth Sahiyog. And when he was here, we were having a conversation about our own interest in research. And when I was talking about dried fish, he was telling me that you see he kind of looks at the TB and the whole TB related tuberculosis public policies and those issues. And one of the causes that he has, a medical scientist was saying that a major part of this tuberculosis comes among this community, particularly poor is largely because they don't get enough nutrition, enough food and in such a context that fish particularly and dried fish can play a very important role. So, it's just another side of this kind of story that one can get as well. And I know a couple of medical science researchers who have worked particularly in Jharkhand and Chattisgarh on tuberculosis and they looked at the nutritional dimensions of it. Dried fish might not have come directly to their thought process unless it is injected into their mind.

Derek Johnson:  I'm also, thinking about Shakuntala, I think Shakuntala would have Some pretty good ideas in this area as well. And then the example you just gave is one that I think she would be really, really interested in. It would just be a matter of tracking her down and trying to pin her down to get her to join the next DFM meeting if possible. And maybe one of your colleagues

Dilanthi Koralagama:  I would like to add a few points here in Sri Lanka we have that medical health Bureau So, they published Some statistics. These days we are trying to see any relationship with that because of the increasing fish and dried fish prices now the consumption has decreased. So, we have that data as well and also, that that help Bureau that report indicates that the stunting, low growth, low growth malnutrition has increased in different district wise also. We have got the report as well and I have Some contacts with the medical officer. So, following that Shakuntala and Ben’s two publications. Now we are trying to now the data is ready. So, we are going to see the relationship between this animal protein especially fish dried fish intake and health.

Derek Johnson: Thanks, Delante. I think having a medical you know a population health person involved in DFM would be really helpful in terms of making the connection between what we know about the nutritional or what we learning about nutritional properties of dried of dried fish and the potential to address population health questions if we were able to provide a greater volume of it actually is …go ahead please, Tara.

Tara Nair: Yeah. what I say is under very strict lab conditions when you look at the impact of the consumption of fish on human health, that is one part of the story. The other thing I was thinking is that we will be able to very directly link it up with the entire advocacy for improving product quality and hygiene. So, it's not the dried fish which is the culprit here. It is a way in which the handling or operations is done. So, I think that sensitivity is missing perhaps in a simple practicing doctor because he or she would just associate consumption with ill health. But there is a huge Sort of chain of things behind that. And I thought that a more what do you call it grounded view on this would help us in terms of maybe making our case stronger to even make that connection of health. And like So, maybe in this a in a very peripheral sort of an approach that can even that connection is lost.

Derek Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. That corresponds to what we found in the global review of dried fish that there is this literature that is simply making the assumption that because dried fish has these nutritional properties, it is good without recognizing the larger social economic dimensions that that need to be accounted for and therefore lead to different kinds of policy recommendations. So, it's not just the volume of dried fish increasing the volume of dried fish, but increasing the quality which is the critical thing.

Holly Hapke: But I think understanding the social economy of that reveals how complicated and potentially fraught that is.

Derek Johnson: But also, going back to the point about the need for collaborative work to bring the different dimensions together.

Holly Hapke:  Well, yeah. And then there's also, a kind of evidence here. I mean everyone talks about you know the sort of poor hygiene but you know I'm curious what And we don't have to get into it here but like what is actually the evidence right that this is bad.

Derek Johnson: Yes, if the degree to which the evidence is bad, where does the bad come from? And that the bad may come from quite different places. It could come from environmental pollutants. It could come from poor processing practices. It could come from poor storage process practices and that may vary from place to place. So, the kinds of required interventions will also, vary from place to place.

In the meeting yesterday, Dubey said that we first need to try to come up with a list of all the possible contaminants and all the possible nutrients and proceed from there. So, even that is not necessarily available.

Nireka Weeratunge: Yeah. I was also, thinking that, I mean you also, need to compare it with the other animal proteins that people are consuming, which also, can be, you know, as or more contaminated depending on what you know kind of antibiotics they might be using or how they might be slaughtering these animals or whatever, you know. So, you know, just focusing on, on the contaminants in in dried fish, you know, without that comparison, it's also, not very useful.

Holly Hapke: Yeah, it might be actually relatively less bad

Nireka Weeratunge: Especially because in terms of this like you know, Dilanthi has been emphasizing, I mean the access to dried fish is going down in Sri Lanka because of the high cost. So, you know, poor people are not having access to the protein that they've had for, you know, decades. So, what does that mean as opposed to, you know, fungus on the fish as opposed to antibiotics or chicken? Anyway, they're not going to be consuming the chicken, OK, because they don't have money for it. So, you know, it's very complex. As Holly said, you know this whole issue of contaminants.

Derek Johnson: Well then on the other side of the argument, the positive side, dried fish, um, we need to demonstrate, we need to provide the evidence to demonstrate the relative positive contribution of dried fish to nutrition. So, and then. That makes it even more complex because it becomes quite a challenging equation when you put all the pieces together. So, at the end of the three years of DFM, we're not going to be able to provide a comprehensive answer of what to do and what not to do. But we're going to be able to push the evidence much, much further and the arguments much, much further in the method much, much further. I think in this area.

Amalendu Jyotishi: I also, had another interesting thought because this particularly came up when we were doing this fish for food work and this contamination question came up, and the Ghanaian team went into doing some this kind of litmus test for ammonia and this formaldehyde. And one major question that came up was the agency. When you kind of do this kind of testing, you try to understand where in the value chain this kind of contamination perhaps would be happening who becomes the victim of it and how this agency kind of works. Knowing that quite often these are the small traders, women largely who are engaged in this process, they become kind of a victim of the state agency, which comes heavily on them. And whereas when we try to kind of put it there like packaging and all those kinds of things we are trying to do, then it kind of creates an integrated formal market structure, and Somebody else gains out of this kind of a capitalist system, which gains out of this. So, to what extent should it be more formalized versus what extent should it be informal? These kinds of questions and this kind of tension were one of the main points of our arguments. So, here, the agency becomes a very interesting question when we are thinking about it. The design part also, is to be thought about, and the role of the state and those kinds of uh how it can the power relation, how it can come up that is something also, has to be kind of kept in mind.

Derek Johnson: Yeah, that's a critical point that I mean I think in a way that's the classic problem of development interventions is there they're always potentially subject to elite capture and then you know sort of creating the opposite kind of effect of what we really want in terms of equity. That's part of the complex and to Some degree unknowable dimension of governance design of implementation.

We're almost out of time, and this has been, this has been a really productive discussion. I'm glad to see that you know these cross-cutting themes are really stimulating constructive ideas. The last thing I wanted to talk about in the meeting is how to continue to manage these bi-monthly planning or DFM plenary meetings. I guess my point is that I don't necessarily want them always to have this kind of large-scale planning focus on them. I think Sometimes it would be good to Orient them towards content or more fun let's say, instead of justice administration. I'm basically asking people to think about, you know, ways in which they might be able to present Something stimulating to us in terms of content in upcoming meetings So, that we can make that the focus again rather than just administrative stuff. And so, I'm not asking for ideas right away necessarily, although those will be welcome as well. But I would like just some general reflections on how to manage these bimonthly meetings as we go forward.

Amalendu Jyotishi:  One interesting way would be the PhD scholars who are there and they can kind of bring in Some of their questions in their doubts dilemma, and that can trigger some amount of discussion. I think in the end all would feel happy about that. More work to be done.

Derek Johnson: Yeah, that's a really nice idea. I like the idea a lot that would and you know we haven't talked So, much about the students as a cross-cutting theme but they are cross-cutting. You know, they are, they're working on issues that are of collective interest and Some of them are involved in more than one research team as well. And so, and I like what you say about them.

How about it being open for them to bring whatever question or issue or vignette to the collective meeting that they wish? So, yes, perhaps in the student group, my first, we can have a brainstorming about setting up one of the next DFM plenary meetings around engagement with students, support for students and yeah, capturing Some of the energy of students for the rest of the DFM group as well.

Mahfuzar Rahman: Yeah, I think it's a really nice idea, Amal. I appreciate it. I think the other day students will agree with that. We can talk about this in our next group meeting, come up with ideas, and share them with you all in the next plenary meeting.

Derek Johnson: I also, really like the idea of sharing Some visual insights into DFM or its visual products. So, whether that's a video or a photo essay that Somebody talks us through and then you just enjoy that and then talk about that creatively, I think that would be Something fun to do in one of the coming DFM meetings. OK. For the next plenary meeting, I think we still will need one more planning-oriented discussion around the themes and I may choose to focus it specifically on this discussion. We just had a working group 2, but after the next one, I'd like to start mixing it up more.

Raktima Ghosh: Yeah, go ahead. Yes, Derek, Sorry, I'll be a bit out of context, but I would like to convey the words of genially regarding reimbursements. So, before leaving the meeting, we are aggressively following up with the office procedures and all, and hopefully, you should get it by the next month, like within two or three weeks. So, we are in the last stage. All the paperwork has been done, and we are ensured that all the reimbursements will be released within two or three weeks. So, actually, it has a very elaborate, you know, administrative procedure that's why took Some time and also, we are delayed because of Some, you know, settlements which we had to have with the official procedure and that's why perhaps there was a delay. We are really So,rry for that. But then, I think we are at the last stage of dealing with this matter.

Derek Johnson: OK, thank you, Doctor. Yes, and I'm glad you raised that point. We've also, been slow to get the reimbursements from U of M to the Canadian participants for the same reason the bureaucratic yeah challenges. So,, I'd like to come up with a better system for the next in-person plenary meeting So, that we don't have this problem again, and So, we'll put Some thought to FM Central into how we can provide funds in a much more immediate way for people to use for participation. OK, So, unless anybody has any last thoughts.

Mahfuzar Rahman: I would also, like to request the participants of the Kolkata meetings. If any of you have not submitted the travel claim yet, please do So,. We are submitting the travel claim at the UFM end, So, if you have any unclaimed travel bills, please submit them as early as possible. Thank you.

Derek Johnson: Great. Well, we've come to the end of the meeting time. I will share the notes from the meeting, and I'll follow up in the coming weeks with a proposed topic for the next plenary meeting. If anybody has any ideas for what they think is a priority for the next plenary meeting, by all means, share them with us. As I said, I will be hoping to have meetings with each of the research teams to talk about specific research team plans based on the matrix. OK. So, thanks, everyone; I really enjoyed the meeting. That was really productive and a good night to all of you in Asia and a good day to the Canadians.